I am delighted to release new episode and indeed a whole new season of Fkd Up By Faith!
I had a great conversation in this episode with Ann Russo (she/her). Ann is a licensed clinical social worker, mental health advocate, educator, and thought leader specializing in addressing complex and often stigmatized topics such as religious trauma, sexual empowerment, ethical non-monogamy, queer identity, and inclusivity in mental health.
We talked about religious trauma, the LGBTQ+ community, the current US political climate and its impacts, and Julian of Norwich’s cat!
Episode Transcript
00:11 Opening Music – by David Goodall
Welcome to Fucked Up By Faith, my name’s Jude Mills. In this podcast we have conversations with people who’ve been fucked up by their faith and we explore how they’ve found hope, healing, reconciliation and forgiveness in or out of their faith tradition.
J – My guest today is Ann Russo who is joining me from New York State – across the pond. I am delighted to welcome Ann to the podcast because she specializes, she’s a psychotherapist who specializes in religious trauma, which is a subject, as you know, I’m really interested in.
J – Welcome Anne to the podcast. It’s really good to have you here.
A – Hi, Jude. Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here today and talk about religion. Both of our favourite topics. Absolutely.
J – I should explain to the listeners that we had a go at this yesterday and it was a little bit disastrous due to my not recognizing that the daylight saving had happened in America. It hasn’t happened here in the UK yet. It’s happening just tonight actually. And also my internet connection was… So here we are once again. Technology appears to be on our side. Touchwood.
A – It does.
J – Okay. And I’m just going to ask you the question I ask everybody, which is, were you fucked up by your faith?
A – In my life, I wasn’t raised within a faith. I was baptized Catholic when I was little. then very little, like three weeks, right? And then when I was five, my dad came out as part of the LGBTQ community. And when that happened, we just didn’t have faith. Now at this time, I didn’t really understand why, but as I started to get older, I realized that the people that my family was most in fear of rejection were people of faith. Unfortunately, at this time there was a lot of talk shows on and you’d have the, you had the moral majority here in the United States and they were very much against homosexuals. So I learned at a very young age to really be afraid of people of faith.
So whenever I would meet someone of faith, would feel, you know, I think looking at it now as a psychotherapist, I realized that it was a trauma response because my body would tense right up. You know, I wouldn’t want to talk to them. I felt automatically shame and guilt and like I was going to be rejected by these people and I wanted to get away from them. Now, whether or not that was actually true of every person, likely not, but that’s what faith meant to me or when someone said God or I’m a Christian, it was a buzzword automatically of someone who was gonna dislike me and my family. And as I got a bit older, I got more curious about religion. I got more curious about theology. Why do these people hate us? I don’t understand.
You know, and that question had never really been posed to my family. Like, well, let’s look at the scripture. Like that never happened. You know, it was just, they don’t like us. We stay away from them. So on my own, I started to look at the Bible and try to understand it and what was going on there. And then when I was 18, I met some folks that said they were not Christian. They were in relationship with Jesus.
Okay. At the time I didn’t really know what that means, but what I know that means now is actually a very strong sense of literal interpretation of the Bible and a very strict adherence to conservative principles and high control within that faith. Didn’t know that. So I joined this church and in the process of Initially participating as 18 year olds do I fell very hard for another member of the church and she was He she was a she mm-hmm and while the feeling was Very mutual this deep connection that we had she was very much believing that Having those feelings or engaging in any kind of romantic relationship would be sinful and against God and that came from family, that came from the church. And while I still enjoyed going to the church, as strange as this may sound, I still went because I wanted to understand. I still did not get it, right? So I would talk to the pastor, I would talk to the worship leader, I even went to an ex-gay ministry not to be ex-gay myself But like what is it that they’re teaching? Like what is it that they’re believing? Where is this coming from? Right? It just did not make sense to me and the more I explored the more Their interpretation of things did not make sense to me.
I went on and got a bachelor’s degree in religious studies I got a master’s in theology and I was looking looking looking for the answer and I feel like the answer did come for me and it was not just through deep study. It was through contextualization, history, culture and letting go in many ways. And the woman that I’m speaking of, she went on to live a straight life and that always broke my heart, that is what happened because of the pressures of the church and the faith. So my fucked up-ness comes from by proxy in a sense. Like it wasn’t so much of what I was believing, but it was what people around me were believing and how that impacted me in my sense of uncertainty and bringing up parts of shame and confusion.
And it stayed with me for a long time. And I didn’t even necessarily realize that I had experienced religious trauma because I felt like, well, religious trauma happens to people that are really in the religion or really deeply believe in all these pieces. But through my own work, I realized, no, like, you can experience religious trauma from the outside because you’re impacted by that religion. even, you know, to this day, I work very hard to, when someone says they’re religious or they’re Christian, I work very hard to not hold my own judgment or my own fears because of the experience that I had in the past.
J – So you’ve come to work with people through your psychotherapy practice who have experienced religious trauma and that’s a spectrum, right? Yes. It’s something that I always try to hold is that what some people might understand as trauma looks very different. It can be something which looks from the outside to be quite minor whixh actually can cut really deep.
A – Yes. Yes.
J – so was it always your intention to work with religious trauma or did it, did it kind of seep into your practice as you developed it?
A – My intention with the practice was always that. Yeah. I didn’t intend to study religion or even be a therapist The situation at you know, eight eighteen in my early twenties it completely shifted my life trajectory You know, was very it was the level of impact for me and I’m grateful that it did actually because I feel like I’m getting to really support folks that have been impacted by participating in high control faith and really looking at sexuality and gender and just sex in general and what’s taught within religion and how that impacts people. And one of the things that I also feel is important that I do in my practice as well is some people want to remain in faith. know, and how do we navigate what that looks like as well. So I feel really like excited really that I have the ability to do that because of having a master’s in theology and a master’s in therapy. And I’m really trying to train other therapists to be able to do this work too because it really is quite nuanced.
J – When we had her or interrupted conversation yesterday, we kind of got to this point where we were saying that having this background in theology, I came to do my Masters in theology for pretty much the same reasons. I felt I needed to understand more deeply the theological background so that I could meet people where they were and to be able to put things into context.
A – Yes.
J – Yeah. And obviously you’re working quite a lot with the LGBTQ community.
A – I’m so grateful that there are so many affirming churches and the challenge with some of that too is when someone’s not from an affirming church. A lot of my clients as they’re trying to navigate out of a more high control church. It can be really difficult for them to go to an affirming church because doctrine is still pretty strict and this affirming church doesn’t make sense to them. that message about themselves, that negative message about themselves has been reinforced for years and years. it definitely takes time, but I am very happy that even in the past 20 years or so I’ve seen a big change. Yeah. Huge change. but still an epidemic. Absolutely. And I don’t want to dismiss the level of the work that still needs to be done here, though, of course.
J – Sure. I think I probably don’t need to guess that with a lot of what we’re seeing happening politically in the US right now, that a lot of people are really worried.
A – Yeah, understandably. And that can, that can trigger previous trauma, you know, when we’re hearing a lot of the kind of the sort of Christian nationalist rhetoric, for example. Yeah. mean, Jude, you know, candidly speaking, there’s a lot of my clients that have safety plans on how to get out the classroom. People are very scared. They’re very, very scared. They are absolutely walking around in trauma, just consistently being traumatized. Everyone’s trying to navigate how much of the news you watch and pay attention to. How do you take care of your own mental health? And what do you need to know if you need to flee? mean, it’s a deeply unfortunate time for minorities, honestly, I mean, even with what we’re seeing with I don’t even want to say immigrants, because it’s happening to citizens, people of colour.
J – Yep. And, you know, I’m watching it from several thousand miles away and feeling it. Feeling that knot in my belly, you know, that fear. And I begin to imagine how it feels actually being there.
A – Yeah. It’s, you know, it’s embarrassing in some ways. I get that. Yes. You know, as it’s. We’re on the world stage and I’m not and I don’t want to necessarily demonize everyone that voted for the current administration because everyone’s fed so many different stories and it can be very confusing and complicated Hmm, but I but I would hope that people can see That harming others whether you agree with them or not should is not part of Liberty and justice and freedom for all
J – I think also I like to be reminded of how the United States has the most wonderful record of protest, civil rights activism. And that history is still there and that activism is still there and people are allowing their voices to be heard and taking a lot of risks in some cases. So I think I hold my faith there that this is in your, it’s in the cultural DNA.
A – Yeah, there is definitely a lot of fight. There’s definitely a lot of fight going on. And yes, 100 % is exactly what I’m hoping for and having faith in that too, that we can turn some of this around. And also the arc of history more globally, this sort of stuff rears its ugly head every now and again, but it doesn’t last. people, the majority of people don’t want it. Yeah. They don’t want it. So. That’s a really good point to remember.
16:29 MUSIC – “Nebula” by Penguin Music on Pixabay
You know, I think if we were able to, and like I said, you know, I talked to people that vote in the other direction and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s funny. It’s like the exact same thing as we were talking about earlier. When I went to those like ex-gay ministries, right? When I was involved in that church, it’s the same principle that I’m following. Why do you believe what you believe? Help me understand what you actually believe. So I can just get a better, you know, I have a better way to communicate to you and maybe even find some empathy and compassion and build relationship. mean, it’s a, it’s the same philosophy.
J – Yeah. And, and you mentioned that a little while ago that what people believe is very much based on what they see and what they see and what they’re immersed in. people who come from those, those you call them high control religions, That is how that’s the lens through which they see the world and their exposure to other ideas is really limited. I’ve spoken to other guests on this show and it does seem quite particular to the United States. People who grew up in really conservative evangelical situations and I ask them, how was it to be in that? That’s how they describe it. Like that is the entire lens through which we see everything. And to break out of it is incredibly, it’s not just difficult. It’s not even something they know is possible.
A – Yes. Yes. Yes, exactly. And to even get to the place where you recognize it’s possible you are forfeiting your friends a lot of times, your family or support community. mean, it’s there so to this. Not just, I’m changing some of the ways I believe in God or the different ways I have faith.
J – Yeah. And if you have heard it from when you were tiny, PRE-verbal even, you know, if at some point you’re all going to be raptured or there’s a possibility that you might go to hell. These ideas are terrifying. If you’ve heard them from when you’re very small, they are sewn into your fabric.
A – Exactly, exactly. And trying to navigate away from that is so difficult. you know, I met a pastor yesterday, and she’s actually a priest of an Episcopal church there. And it’s a very affirming church. And we were talking and she was raised in what she describes as a high control religion. And even, you know, going to college, you go to a Christian college that believes the same thing. You go back to a community that believes the same thing. So it’s like very difficult to move out of out of that belief system. And she was saying that there was certain exposure that she had to different things that she was very interested in learning and reading and some things just started to not add up for her. But it took a very long time to navigate through that. And then on top of it there are still moments of challenge because that messaging was so reinforced that you have to, in a sense, almost continuously remind yourself and expose yourself to something different. just keep getting pulled back into that high control perspective.
J – I sometimes imagine how it would have been if I had grown up in that. And would I have been able to find my way out of it.
A – Um, I mean, that’s something I never know the answer to, but I do imagine it sometimes. I can see, I can see why you would, I, you know, it’s like the, if I was born in this period, what kind of person would I be? Would I be fighting? Like one of the things that like, think about, and I, I think if you look at your personality, this is what I, this is kind of what I was thinking about. Well, you know, I always wondered, what would I have been like in 1860 US, you know, where would I be? And I look at who I am today and the pushback that I’m giving now, and I think that was always me. You know, like it’s always on the side of humans. Like it’s always on the side of the least, the treated people that are treated the least, you know, well, and you probably would be where you are now, but your path probably would have been quite different.
J – I think I know the answer if I was here in the Middle Ages I would be a nun. would be, because nuns got to read, learn to read and have access to books.
A – My gosh, and there’s beautiful writings from nuns in that time period as well. Just incredible writings.
J – The first book in English ever, by a woman, was written by Julian of Norwich. And she was an anchoress – you essentially get bricked up in a room, in a sealed room for life.
A – Oh, wow. Wow. Wow.
J – She had a cat. And one of my favourite stained-glass windows has the picture of Julian and her cat.
A – Oh, I love that. Oh my gosh. That’s isn’t that incredible when you think about it? my goodness. Yeah. And that, and that’s the part of, of faith that I hope to see a smooth to like, like when you talk, like thinking back to when people said it’s a relationship with Jesus, right? Like, writing like that speaks to a relationship with Jesus. And so I’m down for the relationship with Jesus. It’s just, is it a relationship with Jesus?
J – You don’t want an abusive relationship with Jesus. That’s not what Jesus was about at all.
A – Exactly. Exactly. That’s one of the things that I, know, my clients that are still interested in remaining in faith and even some that aren’t. But there is another perspective. always have them go check out stuff, just go read about Jesus.
J- The writings that other people have written about Jesus can be very revelatory. I’ve been writing about ethics recently.
A – Love it.
J – But the ethics of podcasting for people like me, for scholars, theologians. And so one of the things I said was that theologians, unlike people who are in the social sciences, we don’t have a habit of declaring our positionality. And I think that’s fundamental. So would you want to talk to me if I was a Bible-based Christian podcaster?
A – It would be a very different conversation for sure.
J – But yeah, if I hadn’t declared upfront or if you didn’t know upfront what my my thing is. And I think probably the name of the podcast suggests that I’m not a Bible-based Christian.
A – Yeah, yes, yes, yes. But absolutely, because with especially LGBTQ folks or people that have been harmed by religion. Totally it’s going to impact immediately. It’s going to set off that trigger of trauma. Yeah. I don’t like it’s the assumption is going to be that it’s going to be a difficult, painful experience.
J – Exactly. And sometimes I kind of want to say from the off when I meet people, you know, I’m not that sort of Christian.
A – Yeah. Before we get started. Yeah. I get it because like I was saying to you earlier, if someone says I’m a Christian, or they have a cross, anything like that is an immediate internal recoil. Not because I don’t have respect for what I see as Christianity, but the fear is that you’re a Christian who is gonna reject me or hate me because of my sexual orientation. Or that I have to show up in a way that is not authentic in order to keep myself safe. mean, there’s so many moving pieces to that. It can be very slippery.
J – A lot of the people I’ve spoken to, and I’m sure you as well, they have been to churches which say they are affirming and welcoming or, you know, inclusive or whatever the words that they might use. And it turns out they’re really not. And that can double down on trauma. I mean, yeah, that’s dreadful. Horrible experience, as I’ve heard about.
A – Think about entering a space to be with God, really. And that space is now unsafe for you. So something that should have been a vulnerable, loving moment becomes a unsafe, scary space of rejection.
J – And the worst part of it for me, they’re all worse parts, the worst part of it, I I think is that it is said or done in the name of God or in the name of Christ. I can’t even begin to express how that feels in my soul because Christ didn’t reject anybody.
Nope.
27:00 – MUSIC – “Nebula” by Penguin Music on Pixabay
A – That’s bring people back to Christ all the time because this is a religion founded on Christ So let’s let’s look at who this individual was. Mm-hmm truly who was this person, know and it It astounds me That well, there’s always a sadly. I mean, there’s always a group that’s oppressed
And right now it’s LGBTQ in religion. But when I look back at the way scripture was used again back in US times of enslaving people, the Bible was used to justify it as well. exactly. So sadly, God’s name, Jesus’ name has been used to harm a lot of people.
J – it still is. I’m just going to take a breath because when I start to feel that in my body, it becomes quite uncomfortable.
A – You know what? I think that it’s okay to remind us, the people that are doing the work to help others that this is still the reality for many people. And there’s support around now that didn’t necessarily exist in the same way before. Yeah. Bless you. you. So it’s just keep praying for the positive and in realizing that there are there’s a lot of fighters out there. And you know, we just got to do our part, really the end of the day. Yes, we’re all worthy of love and being loved, loving and being loved.
J – Absolutely. something I always have to remind myself is that it’s what my part is. Because we each have our gifts to offer. And there are people who are the out on the street banner waving activists. There are the people who are educators. There are the people who are therapists and carers and who deliver the medicine. There are the artists and the creators and we all have a really, really important part to play in this big picture. And I’m really so grateful for the people who are brave and go out on the streets and do that. Yes. I’m so grateful, but it doesn’t mean that those of us who are doing other stuff, not doing something really important as well.
A – Absolutely. Absolutely. It takes, it does take a village. I mean, it takes a global village.
J – And what’s also really wonderful about having these conversations and the fact that these conversations go out on the internet to be heard by is that they bolster us as practitioners. Yes. But it also bolsters other people who hear it. I am not alone in this. And we kind of know that intellectually, don’t we? know that there are millions of people around the world who feel like we do.
A -Yes, exactly. it’s good to hear it.
J – It’s good to hear it in your ears. We are here. We know what’s happening. We know how you feel and we care. And we’re here for you to reach out to if you need it.
A – Yes, absolutely. 100%.
J – What I find so… powerful and heartening about your, I was going to say your ministry, because it feels to me like it’s a ministry. It’s a practice because you’re a professional psychotherapist, is that you can bring that context to your clients. Yeah. And it comes back to what I said earlier, I don’t know how it would be if I had grown up in any of these traditions. I know how it is to have conversations with people who did.
A – And this idea that they have to choose, that’s the other part that always gets me. If you don’t practice this way, then you can’t practice. How do you just dismiss an entire belief about God? And I just, it’s never made sense to me. It’s a false choice, especially for LGBTQ people that are Christian to have to like, to choose. Oh, that’s both as an identity to a point.
J – Yeah. And this is why I started looking at spiritual abuse because I’ve that that is fundamentally abusive. I mean, there’s a bit of a debate here as to what we mean by spiritual abuse. It’s legally defined as psychological abuse that’s done in a religious or spiritual context. I think it’s much more fundamental and visceral than that. I think spiritual abuse is about something which cuts to the soul of a person. If you are severing them from their spiritual life, that’s…It’s a fundamental evil.
A – It is. It is. is. One of the things I try really hard because with. So if I work with clients sometimes and I’ll work with families that are, you know, they have their still there, they’re strong, more conservative beliefs and fine, fine. But when they’re trying to work with their kids or understand their kids. What is, I find come up a lot is, well, if you’re part of the LGBTQ community, that means that you’re gonna be promiscuous. That means that you’re gonna be unsafe. That means you’re gonna have mental health problems. That means that you’re gonna have substance abuse problems. And they quote the same studies that I would quote, except the problem here is that they’re missing how we get there. It’s not due to having an LGBTQ identity, it is due to the abuse that you receive by others for having an LGBTQ community. People cannot be rejected and shamed just because they exist and you expect them to be able to function in the healthiest way. The level of resilience that you have to have to be part of the LGBTQ or a minority group or marginalized group is unbelievable. And then to put it on them like, well, look you’re gay, so you have a substance abuse and a mental health problem because you’re gay. mean, there’s just so many elements that we have to fight back. one of those very important to try to educate folks that are open to looking at those studies and you say, where is that coming from? Is it actually coming from the identity or is it coming from the rejection from your community?
J – And all the other sort of systemic issues that come from having a marginalized identity. You get similar arguments when it comes to the social determinants of health, don’t you? That’s the idea that it comes down to people’s choices and not necessarily the environment in which they are living and the systemic injustices that they are constantly facing.
A – And I mean, I suppose that it’s easier to do that, right? Yes. This is your fault. Yeah. But we get nowhere. Like we have to, exactly. Like we have to look at the systems at play. And that just hurts me so much when I see that and trying to explain to people rejection causes this, rejection. And what’s so fascinating is most of these parents are really trying to help. Like they really believe that this is what’s going to become of you. And I need to that it doesn’t and and what’s so sad is they’re reinforcing the rejection. Yeah You know, so I mean it’s it’s it is I feel like it’s so simple yet. It’s so complicated. You’re trying to cut through layers and layers and layers of no understanding.
One foot in front of the other, right, Jude?
J – Yep. Yes. One of the things that I really wanted for this podcast, as well as being about being fucked up by faith, was that we move towards hope, healing, reconciliation, forgiveness, all of the words. Hope can be difficult for people to cling on to. But Hope is in what I said earlier on in the deepest understanding of who we are as human beings and what we can be. And most people, I believe, are trying to do the right thing.
A – Me too.
J – So what if you were to leave us with any words of hope? What would they be?
A – I said it a little bit earlier, but I want to say it again because it’s really been ringing in my head. You deserve to be loved and cared for and to be able to love and care for others. That’s it. Yeah.
J – Thank you.
A – Thank you.
38:20 – Closing Music – by David Goodall
You’ve been listening to Fucked Up by Faith with me Jude Mills. Our music is by David Goodall and you can find the podcast on Spotify and all major podcast channels. If you would like to take part in the podcast or you know someone who would be an awesome guest, please do get in touch. You can do that via my website judemills.com forward slash podcast. I look forward to hearing from you. Go well.
Links
Ann’s website https://www.annrusso.org
Ann’s practice website https://www.amrtherapy.com/
Julian of Norwich https://julianofnorwich.org/pages/who-is-julian-of-norwich
Music
Title music by David Goodall
Incidental music “Nebula” by Penguin Music on Pixabay
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